Host: Welcome to CET Talks, the International Accreditors for Continuing Education and Training podcast, where we convene thought leaders in the continuing education and training ecosystem to share ideas, research best practices, and experiences that promote the creation of a world that learns better. Enjoy the episode.

Randy Bowman: Hello and welcome to CET Talks. My name is Randy Bowman, president and CEO of IACET.

Mike Veny: And I am CET Co-host Mike Veny, certified corporate wellness specialist and CEO of an IACET-accredited provider. Hello, Randy.

Randy Bowman: Hi, Mike. How’s it been?

Mike Veny: Life’s going good. And to you and our listeners out there, I wanted to tell you all something. I recently facilitated a webinar for educators transitioning out of K to 12 education to become what we call instructional designers, and my presentation was about the mental health side of going through a transition. This is a really important topic because so many teachers are leaving the profession right now and becoming instructional designers. It’s this new cool career that everyone wants to be a part of.

Randy Bowman: Right. I think there’s some kind of environment in the secondary schools right now that teachers are leaving in droves. I know it’s a national crisis and having a pathway to a new career, having a place they can go and leverage the skills they have is going to be very important in the future. Our guest today is Brandon Smith. He is the instructional design manager at the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, where he’s worked for 17 years. He has earned his certified professional in talent development from ATD as well as other certifications including HTML five specialist. Brandon, thank you so much for joining us and being here to talk to us and our listeners on what the job market and the market of instructional designers is looking like right now.

Brandon Smith: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Randy Bowman: So just to level set everybody, do you mind giving us a brief overview of your career? Where did you start and how did you end up as an instructional design manager?

Brandon Smith: Actually, I didn’t start out as a teacher. I was a senior mutual fund representative. As I was learning and getting more experience, my team members needed some training. Since I was the most experienced one on the team, I kind of fell into the training world. Right before I graduated, I went to a job fair and I found my current employer, so it was by accident, as well. I started off as a trainer and I started having kiddos, but I was training all over the country and it was a little bit rough traveling so much. I decided to take a transition to a different position within our team, and I became an assistant to instructional designers, where I started helping them out and working with them on the admin side. As I was working with them, I became really interested in instructional design and watching the process. I started volunteering for stretch assignments, taking on new roles, making suggestions, and things like that. As the role became available, my manager at the time promoted me to instructional designer, and I started to take on stretch roles. I volunteered for as many opportunities as possible all over the organization, trying to meet as many people as possible, and made my way up the ladder through that method. My manager at the time suggested I get a certification, and the one I chose was the CPTD through ATD. After a couple years, she suggested I start taking on some leadership opportunities. Eventually, I started managing the instructional design team. It was an interesting experience because I started managing people I was an assistant for at one point. That was kind of an odd transition and an awkward situation for a little bit, but it was a good experience. They were very flexible, I asked a lot of questions, and I didn’t act like I was better than them, or anything like that. It ended up going pretty well, where they were very supportive, but it was a mental puzzle for a little while trying to figure that out and work through that.

Randy Bowman: Right. I know transitioning in an organization does have its challenges. I guess I would say, now that I’m thinking about it, we dropped this term ‘instructional designer’ since the beginning of the episode, but some of our listeners may not know, what is an instructional designer? What does one do?

Brandon Smith: You develop material for courses or other learning content. I always like to say we’re like a project manager that specializes in training and course development. You do all sorts of tasks that support the training and development role.

Randy Bowman: And you use the term ‘subject matter expert’, or you’ve talked about it. What is a subject matter expert?

Brandon Smith:  A subject matter expert is a presenter or a course contributor that specializes in areas that they’re considered to be an expert in. They have a lot of expertise and a lot of experience in certain areas, and they are well versed in whatever the content is that you need to create.

Randy Bowman:  But they’re probably not trainers or an expert in adult learning theory and all of those kinds of ancillary skills. Correct?

Brandon Smith:  Correct. Most of the time they’re not trainers. They’re not really familiar with the process. They need a lot of support and that’s one of the struggles as an instructional designer. Sometimes subject matter experts see us as people that put PowerPoints together or people that give them coffee during training, and we’re trying to be seen as peers. One of the struggles of the instructional designer, and training in general, is we’re trying to be seen as peers versus people that are just putting PowerPoints together and things like that. So it’s a growth process and something that I think the industry is working on as a whole.

Mike Veny: Yes, and it’s a very new career in the eyes of many people because so many people are just getting on board with it. I mean, it’s been around for a while, but you have so many people getting on board with it. One of the things that stands out in your career journey, in all that you’ve shared so far, even though we’re talking about instructional design here, there’s a lot of lessons for all of us listening right now, in terms of success here and your career journey. Two things that I took from you so far; the importance of volunteering for opportunities, being that kid in school that raises their hand and goes, “Okay, I’ll do it.” And also asking a lot of questions. So, what do you think were some of the choices and risks that led you on this career trajectory, and what advice would you give to that person listening right now who’s a little hesitant about becoming an instructional designer?

Brandon Smith:  I’d say go for it. I love being an instructional designer. Now I’m an instructional design manager, and I enjoy that, as well. But I’d say go for it; it’s a great profession. You’re doing something different every day. The tasks are fulfilling, you’re working with normally great people, and you learn constantly. Also, be curious, always be interested in what others have and the information they can provide. Sometimes in the past, I may judge a subject matter expert or somebody before a project. As I get to know them and go through the process, I learn a lot of information about the topics and try to take it all in. Like you said, always volunteer to take on roles. I keep telling my instructional designers to ask for stretch opportunities; it never hurts to ask. That’s one of the things I try to tell my kiddos, as well; you never know the opportunities you’re going to get when you just ask a question. Just asking questions has changed my path and helped me advance. By asking for opportunities and to work with leadership and other instructional designers on my team has been good for me.

Randy Bowman:  So, Brandon, you’ve worked in all levels of training it appears. Now that you’re an instructional design manager, can you talk to me about what skills you’re looking for when you’re hiring instructional designers to join your team? How do you decide who’s going to be a good fit? What are you looking for on their resumes, in the interview? Any advice you can give to people who are pivoting into this field?

Brandon Smith:  Sometimes hiring managers are nervous to hire teachers because there’s a little bit of a difference. I would say, if you start to get interested, start dabbling in instructional design, doing projects, getting experience in small pieces and try to get as much experience as you can. I will say we’ve actually hired a couple of teachers, and they’ve been amazing instructional designers on our team. Be curious, ask questions, always volunteer for the opportunities to help out, take on those instructional design and development roles, and things like that. As an instructional design manager, when I’m hiring, I look for people who are smarter than me. I’m trying to get people who are better than myself. With my team right now, they’re all extremely good designers and awesome team members. They’re all actually better designers than I was. So, I’m trying to hire people who are better than myself.

Mike Veny:  I love that. What it sounds like is that the path to becoming an instructional designer, at least right now with where we are at with it, is not a linear thing, actually. It’s something that you have to pick up your own little lessons from different areas. You also brought up the importance of character when it comes to this role because this role of instructional designer is so important. You know, you don’t just have a training need and create a course. For those of you that are listening, it’s a whole process. But let’s get personal. In addition to your professional life, you engage with several other organizations, including some in your local community dedicated to fight human trafficking. How do you think your experiences working with people as an instructional designer lends itself to volunteer opportunities like this?

Brandon Smith:  Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say, being curious. I’m always wanting to learn more about stuff going on around me and in the community and asking questions. I get in trouble at home because I’m a question-asker but not for ill intentions; I just like to understand why things are the way they are. I like to understand the process that has occurred to put people in the places they’re at and the life situations that occur that put people where they are. I’m just always curious and I like to ask questions. Networking and meeting people in different areas and diverse groups has always been interesting to me.

Randy Bowman:  Brandon, thank you so much for joining us today. As you are aware, here at IACET we would like to ask our guests one big question to close out the episode, and that is, what does a world that learns better look like to you?

Brandon Smith:  It’s an interesting question. I was actually listening to a podcast this morning by Sal Khan and he was talking about making learning available, meeting people where they’re at and being adaptive to the individual. But also just being curious and open to learning new things, questioning your own biases and assumptions; questioning why things are the way they are. Also, having a growth mindset. I know I’ve said several of those things multiple times, but I think being curious, having a growth mindset, and asking questions is a big thing for me.

Mike Veny:  Well, Brandon, thank you very much for being here today, sharing your experiences with us, and reminding us about some very important but fundamental things, whether we’re instructional designers or not. Randy, I just wanted to share my takeaway. Honestly, this takeaway could be for any episode we have, and I think it’s so important because we get caught up in the weeds of our work and just doing things but being curious—I know he said it multiple times—being curious, especially because when it comes to instructional design, it’s not a linear path and we’re still figuring it out. So, it’s really important to ask questions, be curious. What about you?

Randy Bowman:  You know, I think the key takeaway I got was that curiosity was a very big part of that, but what was the volunteering part? I think there’s a trend, especially right now of people who are afraid to volunteer. They think they’re going to be taken advantage of by their bosses or their managers, and so they don’t want to do anything outside of a small, narrow scope. But I think there’s something about being open to taking on a different role or to say, “Let me prove to you that I can do what it is you want me to do.” I think Brandon’s insight that, “Hey, it’s a risk for my manager to move me here, so I need to volunteer to show I can do it. So, I put in a little risk and then they put in a little risk.” That is where that kind of growth can really happen. I love the idea of volunteering and stretching yourself into new roles.

Mike Veny:  I love that. Well, as we wrap up today’s discussion on the lifecycle of an instructional designer, we’d like to hear from you, listeners. What tips, tricks, or experiences do you have on leveraging instructional designers to build relationships? Please share your experiences, insights, and ideas for future topics on our LinkedIn page or our new website, cet-talks.org. Again, that’s cet-talks.org. Your stories can provide invaluable lessons and inspiration for others navigating similar paths. We certainly hope you’ll subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform, so you don’t miss any episodes. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Host: You’ve been listening to CET Talks, the official podcast of IACET. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcast. To learn more about IACET visit IACET.org. That’s I-A-C-E-T.org. Thanks for listening and we’ll be back soon with a new episode.